[USCC] Fwd: A Virus, rather than Prions, May be the Cause of Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE)

Tue Feb 20 09:56:45 CST 2007

  First of all I would like to say I enjoy reviewing the topics of
discussion on this list but every now and then I feel it drifts and I have
to add my two cents. I am watching endless debate on certification and
prions surviving compost to the latest comment about concentrations in
septage. As a science based forum perhaps you should follow the lead of
Mother Natures farms and actually do a test before you discuss it.

  I have been designing composting toilet's and composting varying sources
of human waste my entire adult life. I make endless trips with septage
haulers to first hand witness the problems they encounter. I am a licensed
septic installer sitting on a backhoe observing the soil structure that made
a bed fail. I work hand in hand with a medical officer of health to verify
findings so here are some observations from the field.

  It is stated that septic systems are the number one source of groundwater
pollution in North America but after a life working with hydro-geologist's I
would like to know how anyone really knows this to be true? I have witnessed
a dramatic number of septic system deaths with the introduction of water
softeners. The system is dosed with salt , the bed becomes anoxic and gley
forms around the tile bed until a pond is formed and I get called in. If you
want to be pro-active deal with that. I have conducted hundreds of trials
composting every kind of septage and sewage sludge and can tell you that
septage is so much cleaner it should have its own category. There is an
absolute correlation between the size and industrial base of town and city
sewage waste and the time needed to properly compost it. The metals content
always effects the speed and quality of the compost operation as does the
chlorine content. Softeners again have increased metal leaching in pipes to
the extent that the city of Toronto has an average of 1440ppm copper. Now it
seems to me that if we live in the biggest land mass that has a compost
listserve what is the rush to compost it quickly over doing it well? In the
north a year of outdoor composting is six months and I have never seen an in
vessel composter do a proper job on human waste with out massive inputs of
energy, which rather defeats the point of composting and probably has
something to do with why the creator did not line the woods with compost
vessels. That is why I leave the composted sewage in an outdoor pile for two
years. There is no race to compost something nobody wants and any biologist
will tell you that if you give nature enough time it can brakedown anything.
Non of what I say is rocket science yet if only a few out there are doing
actual tests it will be a cold day in California when you will licence me
and so in the meantime I suggest you practice the medical term of prudent
avoidance, get testing and if you do not like the practice of composting
human waste then suggest a better ,sustainable practice for disposal.
Regards Peter Turrell
Director Millennium Institution

----- Original Message -----
From: <epsteinee at comcast.net>
To: "Compost Discussion List" <compost at composter.com>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [USCC] Fwd: A Virus, rather than Prions,May be the Cause of
Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE)

> Participate in the Annual Compost Awareness Week May 6, 2007 to May 12,
2007
>
> This year's theme is "The Possibilities are Endless ... Compost!"
>
> For more info, go to: http://compostingcouncil.org/section.cfm?id=25
>
> Or Call the USCC at 631-737-4931
>
>
>
>

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> Edo, I and many of my colleagues at USEPA in Cinncinati do not deny the
need for more research on the subjects you mentioned.  We also are cognizant
of the need to further advance both the biological analytical techniques for
wastewater and sludge/biosolids.
>
> In 2001 USEPA held a workshop on Emerging Infectious Disease agents and
issues Associated with Animal Manures, Biosolids and Other Organic
By-products. The following were the speakers:
> Sally Gutierres USEPA-NRMRL; Dr. Jeffrey Karns, USDA-ARS; William Yanko
(LA County Sanitation District, retired); Dr Charles Gerba U. of Arizona;
Dr. Mark Sobsey, U. of north Carolina; Dr. Dwight Bowman, Cornell U.; Dr.
Roland Fayer, USDA-ARS; Dr. Joseph Eisenberg, School of Public Health, U.
California; Dr. Paul Gale Wrc-NSF United kingdom; Dr. Joseph Farrell (USEPA,
retired); Alan Godfree, United Kingdom; Dr. Katherine Simonds, Australia;
Andrea Vicari, North Carolina State U.
>
> There were 47 participants which represented USDA-APHIS, Centers for
Epidimiolgy and Animal Health; Med. Lab. Sci. Dept. and Dept. of Micro. U of
NH; CDC-NIOSH; US geol. Survey; U. of Pittsburgh Env. Eng.; USEPA-NERL
Microb. and Chem. Exposure Assessment Res. Div.Harvard School of public
Health; U. Minn. Dept of Vet. Diag.Medicine; CDC Nat. Center Env. Health;
Tulane U. School of Public Health; U. of WA School of Public Health &
Community Medicine; U. of Cinn.; The Environ. Agency, UK; U. of Cal.; and
many others. You can see and appeciate the depth of knowledge of these
individuals.
>
> We discussed the subjects you mentioned as well as those of Jim Bynum. I
do not have any intention of answering his comments because of his tone and
accusations. We were very concerned with analytical techniques (this is one
reason for the revision of EPA Control of pathogens and Vector Attraction in
Sewage Sludge, EPA/625/R-92/013, July 2003). We sought to identify better
organisms (than Salmonella and Fecal coliform) to be used as indicator
organism which could identify potential presence and quantity of pathogens.
Obviously it is not practical or possible to analyze all pathogens. We
recognized that one of the best disinifection methods for waste materials is
time-temperature. For example pasteurization of milk involves raising the
temperature to 63C (145F) for 30 minutes or 73C (162F) for 15 sec.. Are all
the pathogens destroyed at these temperatures? No. This is why we regulate
the composting temperature and time at 55C (131F) for three to 15 days
depending on the proce
>  ss in
> order to disinfect the waste. The workshop participants recognized that
spore formers can withstand thermophilic temperatures and survive such
processes as composting. However we felt that these would not be good
indicator organisms. As one who has been deeply involved with fungi,
especially Aspergillus fumigatus, I well recognize that this organism
survives the thermophilic temperatures associated with composting. This
organism is ubiquitous and associated with soil.  It has been found in
homes, libraries, schools, playgrounds, hospitals, etc. Most aspergillosis
cases have occurred in hospitals or to immuncompromised individuals (e.g.
cystic fibrosis) exposed to AF in the environment. We have not seen any
cases among workers for AF infections or other pathogenic infections and
disease, although there are over 30,000 workers in the industry. Workers are
the most exposed individuals and exposed to higher quantities and more
frequently. Workers in the wastewater field including
>   land
> application of biosolids have not been shown to have a higher rate of
infections or diseases that other employees in public works. It has been
shown that many new workers at wastewater treatment plants have initially
had gastrointestinal problems which disappeared in a short time. Considering
that there are probably over 100,000 employees, this tells us that are
immune system is pretty good and our hygenic practices are very good.
>
> My whole purpose in presenting the risk aspect which came from the
December 4, 2006 issue of time magazine (I suggest interested people read
the entire article), is to put our concerns in perspective. I for one would
be more comfortable eating crops raised on biosolids providing the 40CFR503
rules are obeyed, than eating organic crops grown on manure. In fact I am
very cautious in buying organic foods at local farms using uncomposted
manure. I still go to malls where my risk of being shot is much greater than
eating food grown on land which biosolids or compost is applied to.  Lets
consider one other aspect. Twenty five (25) percent of human waste disposed
in the US is through septic systems which does not provide any disinfection.
It has been documented that this is the greatest pollutant of our water
resources.  Although many of the pumpings (many are not done as they should
be) are disposed in wastewater treatment plants, a significant amount is
land disposed illegally or
>  with n
> o treatment. Lime or composting would be good disinfection and I would
much prefer that this would be done. Septic material also contains the
highest concentration of pharmaceutical and personal health products
including medications disposed down the drain. These materials if sent to a
wastewater treatment plant usually end up in a small plant since it is
located in a rural area. This small plant has a much lower dilutiontion than
medium or large treatment plants. In many cases these small plants discharge
their wastewater into small estuaries with have less volume of water. A 20
or 40 mgd wastewater treatment plant discharging its treated water into a
large river is much less apt to result in pollution than a plant treating 1
or 2 mgds and discharging its treated water into a small stream. Here again
is the aspect of potential risks to the environment and human health.
>
> Now to discuss your specific statements. First of all, many or most of us
do not approach the subject with bravado. We recognize that there is
considerable lack of medical evidence and we wish there was more financial
research support  to people like Higgins, Casson, Reimers and many highly
qualified individuals. I recently returned from the WEF Disinfection
conference where I was given an award for my past research and activities
related to disinfection. We all agreed as to the need of better and more
data. But now we have to work with what we have and make every effort to
protect human health and the environment with the knowledge we have. EPA has
done health risk assessment for pathogens (see the technical documents for
the 503) These are old and I do not know specifically what has been done
since the 2002 NRC report.
>
> In reference to Pruden et al's article. which studied the antibiotic
resistance genes as emerging environmentalntal contaminants. They looked at
river sediments, irrigation ditches, dairy lagoons and effluents of
wastewater. The result was that dairy lagoon water > irrigation ditch water
> urban/agriculturally impacted river sediments. They concluded that
scientists and engineers need to address this issue.disputedisp[ute there.
But let me point out to you that spinach contamination in California
probably resulted fro manure contamination from irrigation ditch water.
>
> I was not able to find Sara Firi's article and I will try to contact her
in Minnesota. However, her citation was from a conference in Orlando in
2006. Until a peer review article is published I do not pass judgment on a
paper presented at meetings.
>
> I know Higgins and his and colleagues work and it is excellent and am
looking to see some of the published results.
>
> Faguy presented an hypothesis on lateral gene transfer between two
organisms which he states "it may serve as a model having broad
applicability to a number of pathogenic systems". The hypothesis has not
been proven yet.
>
> Antibiotic resistance is a major concern for the medical community. As
Hjalmarsson, Sjolund and Engstrand in Expert Rev. Mol. Diagn 2002 2(3):
267-272 state "Resistanceence development is a significant clinical problem
in Helicobacter pilori and represents the major cause of treatment failure".
I am glad I was treated for this organism several years ago before it
developed resistance.  It is one of the most prolific organisms world wide
and a major cause of ulcers. Yet it has not been found in biosolids
according to researchers at New England Medical. Why I do not know.
>
> My son is Director of Surgical Pathology at John Hopkins Medical Center
and assists me very much in putting things in perspective.  Through him I
have great faith in the medical profession and research in medicine. We have
made enormous strides in medicine in the last few years. Only 89 years ago
we lost 50 million persons to a flu epidemic and although we are very much
concerned with the potential of a bird flu epidemic, I have faith in the
medical profession, our medical agencies, and the pharmaceutical industry in
preventing an epidemic of that magnitude again.  The wastewater industry is
relatively young and the collection and treatment of human waste since it
inception of the cholera epidemic in England has made enormous strides.
Wastewater and solids generated and treated have not resulted in major
illnesses and documented evidence of health effects. I am an optimist and
believe the industry will be able to address the issues you mentioned. Risk,
exposure and economics
>  (how m
> uch should we pay or willing to pay  to filter out everything discharged
into the wastewater). What will it cost to distill 40 to 100 mgd of
wastewater?  definitely we need more research and more funds for research. I
am glad that I don't have to fight for research grants as colleagues and
friends of mine  are having to do.
>
> I do not intend to continue on this subject.
>
> Eliot
> --
> Eliot Epstein
> 9071 Fairbanks Lane #1
> Boca Raton, FL 33496
> Tel: 561-852-2592
> Cell: 781-603-7151
> E-mail: epsteinee at comcast.net
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Edo McGowan" <edo_mcgowan at hotmail.com>
>
> > Participate in the Annual Compost Awareness Week May 6, 2007 to May 12,
2007
> >
> > This year's theme is "The Possibilities are Endless ... Compost!"
> >
> > For more info, go to: http://compostingcouncil.org/section.cfm?id=25
> >
> > Or Call the USCC at 631-737-4931
> >
> >
> >

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