[USCC] FW: Re: Fecal Coliform testing issues
frank
frank at compostlab.com
Mon Oct 30 12:10:25 CST 2006
Hi David,
A few comments below:
Schellinger, David A. wrote:
>Frank,
>Where is your evidence that only heating is required to kill pathogens,
>when aeration and microbiological competition, inhibition and enzymatic
>activity contribute a significant amount to the demise of pathogens?
>
>
All this is true but heat and time are the only sure fire proof the
composting process goes through.
>Pathogens would not be able to reinfest composted sewage under well
>aerated conditions and probably at a lower temperature.
>
>
The lower temperatures from 50 deg. C will make it more inviting for
regrowth. And perhaps there is not likely a reinfest of pathogens, but
any resistant forms of the pathogen will survive for a later, more
opportune time.
>Do to the nature of most sewage sludge that is composted, it would be
>very difficult to change the pathogen reduction phase of composting to
>the end of the heating phase, after the readily available carbon and
>nutrient sources have been depleted. This makes little sense to me.
>
>
After the pathogen reduction phase (PRP) the composting process must
continue until stabilization has occurred to be 'compost'. Yard waste
where new wood gets exposed with every turning is an example. Also other
types of composting (enclosed) where there may be only a few days at the
high temperatures. PRP has little to do with stability. In fact What I
would like to see is after the PRP the composting process for food waste
continue using vermistabilization and that entire industry cannot occur
if fecal coliform ((FC) tests are required at 'sale'. Because FC is so
common, versatile and will grow in both aerobic and anaerobic
conditions its up and downs after the PRP stage has little to do
regarding if the more resistant forms of pathogens have been killed
during the heat.
>I conclude that changing the curing and storage to improve aeration
>would do more for eliminating pathogens than would changing period of
>pathogen reduction. This may include curing in smaller piles, or
>aerating curing piles more thoroughly.
>
>
If you believe aeration is what kills pathogens then we should not worry
about it at all because the soil the compost goes in -must- be aerobic
or the plants will not grow. I am not a microbiologist so may be way off
on this but I think the more resistant forms will survive aerobic
conditions for years until ingested. I think we must really concentrate
on making sure the heat phase is working as planned with increased
temperature readings and FC test at the end to ensure proper mixing has
occured. About 18% of the compost samples we test fail the FC test. I
believe most have actually gone through proper heat phase and the fecal
has just regrown in the warmer, more ideal conditions.
Frank
>Dave Schellinger
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: compost-bounces at composter.com
>[mailto:compost-bounces at composter.com] On Behalf Of frank
>Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 6:49 PM
>To: US Composting Council Compost Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [USCC] FW: Re: Fecal Coliform testing issues
>
>U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW Wyndham
>Orlando Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007 The National forum
>for those involved in the development and expansion of the composting
>and organics recycling industry CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION FORMS,
>WORKSHOP AGENDAS, EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES
>ARE AVAILABLE AT THE USCC WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL THE
>USCC AT 631-737-4931
>
>
>Eliot, Composters,
>
>I would like the Pathogen Reduction phase to finish at the end of the
>heat phase, but still require stabilization as a requirement for a
>'compost'. It seems it should end at the heat phase because that is the
>only place in composting that will kill all the more resistant forms of
>pathogens - it must happen here or it will not happen.
>Stabilization can then be completed using vermistabilization (or
>conventional means) and proof of being stabilized via a TMECC CO2
>method. Requiring a FC test after stabilization via heat composting and
>after curing takes place (at sale) seems to disallow others forms of
>stabilizing processes. And once the pathogens have been killed it should
>not matter. IMO Frank
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>epsteinee at comcast.net wrote:
>
>
>
>>U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW Wyndham
>>Orlando Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007 The National forum
>>for those involved in the development and expansion of the composting
>>and organics recycling industry CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION FORMS,
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>WORKSHOP AGENDAS, EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES
>>ARE AVAILABLE AT THE USCC WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL
>>THE USCC AT 631-737-4931
>>
>>
>>If a sample had fecal coliform (FC) bacteria when shipped, there could
>>
>>
>be regrowth. When New York City sent their biosolids to Texas and
>Colorado they found that before shippment they met the USEPA fecal
>coliform count of less than 2 million as required cor Class B. When the
>material arrived in the west the count was higher and did not met the
>regulations.
>
>
>>USEPA's regulations 40CFR503 state that the release of a product is
>>
>>
>based on testing before shipment. Therefore one should test the product
>before shipment and avoid a second remote test. The test should be
>reported as MPN. The membrane filter method is not allowed.One needs to
>understand the rational for the 1000 FC regulatory requirement. In 1988
>Yanko for LA County Sanitation Districts conducted a study for USEPA. He
>found that when the FC count was below 1000 MPN per gram total dry
>solids no Salmonella sp. were detected (details in Epstein, 1997 "The
>Science of Composting" pg. 459). Appendix F of the regulations provides
>for sample preparation for fecal coliform and Salmonella sp. bacteria.
>
>
>>I have always advised my clients to test for Salmonella sp. bacteria
>>
>>
>rather than fecal coliform.
>
>
>>Eliot Epstein
>>Epstein Environmental Consultants, LLC
>>
>>--
>>Eliot Epstein
>>19 Preston Place
>>North Easton, MA 02356
>>Tel: 508-238-1631
>>Cell: 781-603-7151
>>E-mail: epsteinee at comcast.net
>>
>>-------------- Forwarded Message: --------------
>>From: epsteinee at comcast.net
>>To: US Composting Council Compost Discussion List
>><compost at composter.com>
>>Subject: Re: [USCC] Fecal Coliform testing issues
>>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:33:47 +0000
>>
>>If a sample had fecal coliform (FC) bacteria when shipped, there could
>>
>>
>be regrowth. When New York City sent their biosolids to Texas and
>Colorado they found that before shippment they met the USEPA fecal
>coliform count of less than 2 million as required cor Class B. When the
>material arrived in the west the count was higher and did not met the
>regulations.
>
>
>>USEPA's regulations 40CFR503 state that the release of a product is
>>
>>
>based on testing before shipment. Therefore one should test the product
>before shipment and avoid a second remote test. The test should be
>reported as MPN. The membrane filter method is not allowed.One needs to
>understand the rational for the 1000 FC regulatory requirement. In 1988
>Yanko for LA County Sanitation Districts conducted a study for USEPA. He
>found that when the FC count was below 1000 MPN per gram total dry
>solids no Salmonella sp. were detected (details in Epstein, 1997 "The
>Science of Composting" pg. 459). Appendix F of the regulations provides
>for sample preparation for fecal coliform and Salmonella sp. bacteria.
>
>
>>I have always advised my clients to test for Salmonella sp. bacteria
>>
>>
>rather than fecal coliform.
>
>
>>Eliot Epstein
>>Epstein Environmental Consultants, LLC
>>
>>--
>>Eliot Epstein PhD
>>Adjunct Professor of Public Health
>>Boston University
>>19 Preston Place
>>North Easton, MA 02356
>>Tel: 508-238-1631
>>Cell: 781-603-7151
>>E-mail: epsteinee at comcast.net
>>
>>-------------- Original message --------------
>>From: ALFRED RATTIE <arconsulting1 at verizon.net>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW Wyndham
>>>Orlando Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007 The National forum
>>>for those involved in the development and expansion of the composting
>>>and organics recycling industry CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION
>>>FORMS, WORKSHOP AGENDAS, EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP
>>>OPPORTUNITIES ARE AVAILABLE AT THE USCC
>>>WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL THE USCC AT 631-737-4931
>>>
>>>
>>>Some participants of the USCC's STA Program are experiencing a failure
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>to meet pathogen reduction (fecal coliform) standards as required by
>>>EPA 503 regulations. This, while not a seemingly unusual situation;
>>>- does not always occur with a given producer's compost
>>>- sometimes occurs only after shipping to a distant STA lab, but not
>>>during local lab testing (some producers test twice)
>>>- is occurring with both yard trimming and biosolids compost Two
>>>examples of recent problems are listed below:
>>>**********************************************************************
>>>**********
>>>**********************************************************************
>>>***
>>>1) I had a series of conversation with an STA lab and several others
>>>regarding the fecal regrowth issues. Case in point, a recent analysis
>>>showing a fecal count of 1,900 was received. The five windrows that
>>>were composited and sampled for this test each passed local lab PFRP
>>>
>>>
>testing, i.e. fecal coliform analysis.
>
>
>>>I have documented proof of this. Now we have a set of lab results that
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>reflects data that makes this a class 2 product rather than a class 1
>>>product that it < BR>> started out as when it came out of the PFRP
>>>process. Again, we have records documenting time and temperature data
>>>
>>>
>as well as the local lab fecal colifrom results. What would account for
>this?
>
>
>>>2) I was failing fecal coliform testing when I shipped my compost to
>>>an STA lab using the prescribed TMECC practices. This ended when I
>>>used a courier service to make an immediate delivery. Is there a
>>>regrowth issue associated with shipping and handling?
>>>**********************************************************************
>>>**********
>>>**********************************************************************
>>>*** The USCC's STA Program requires participants to pass both pathogen
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>and metals testing. We are struggling to understand why these compost
>>>producers are experiencing this problem. All input is welcome.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Al Rattie
>>>USCC STA Program Adminis trative/Technical Manager
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Compost maillist - Compost at composter.com
>>>http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>>>
>>>This list is a service provided by the US Composting Council.
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Ongoing Sponsors of the USCC Discussion list are:
>>>
>>>Food Industry Environmental Network (FIEN), a regulatory and policy
>>>e-mail alert service for environmental, food and agricultural industry
>>>
>>>
>professionals.
>
>
>>>Contact Jack Cooper 301/384-8287 JLC at fien.com --- www.fien.com
>>>
>>>Renewable Carbon Management, LLC with the containerized, in-vessel
>>>NaturTech Composting System www.composter.com rcm at composter.com
>>>
>>>(c) Copyright 2006 United States - All rights reserved
>>>
>>>Members posting CC copies to the list and other addresses will have
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>their > posting privelages suspended. No exceptions!
>
>
>>>Opinions expressed represent only the poster and are not necessarily
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>website at:
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>>_______________________________________________
>>Compost maillist - Compost at composter.com
>>http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>>
>>This list is a service provided by the US Composting Council.
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>Ongoing Sponsors of the USCC Discussion list are:
>>
>>Food Industry Environmental Network (FIEN), a regulatory and policy
>>
>>
>e-mail alert service for environmental, food and agricultural industry
>professionals.
>
>
>>Contact Jack Cooper 301/384-8287 JLC at fien.com --- www.fien.com
>>
>>Renewable Carbon Management, LLC with the containerized, in-vessel
>>NaturTech Composting System www.composter.com rcm at composter.com
>>
>>(c) Copyright 2006 United States - All rights reserved
>>
>>Members posting CC copies to the list and other addresses will have
>>
>>
>their posting privelages suspended. No exceptions!
>
>
>>Opinions expressed represent only the poster and are not necessarily
>>
>>
>the opinion or policy of any organization.
>
>
>>Non-members of USCC are encouraged to join the Council through our
>>
>>
>website at: http://www.compostingcouncil.org/membership.cfm For
>discussion list policies and information regarding subscribing,
>unsubscribing, digest or other options, go
>to:http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>
>
>>For additional help in unsubscribing or to report bugs and problems,
>>send a message to the List Manager, Jim McNelly, at
>>compost-owner at composter.com
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>>
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>>
>>
>
>--
>Frank Shields
>Soil Control Lab
>42 Hangar way
>Watsonville, CA 95076
>(831) 724-5422 tel
>(831) 724-3188 fax
>frank at compostlab.com
>www.compostlab.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Compost maillist - Compost at composter.com
>http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>
>This list is a service provided by the US Composting Council.
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>Ongoing Sponsors of the USCC Discussion list are:
>
>Food Industry Environmental Network (FIEN), a regulatory and policy
>e-mail alert service for environmental, food and agricultural industry
>professionals.
>Contact Jack Cooper 301/384-8287 JLC at fien.com --- www.fien.com
>
>Renewable Carbon Management, LLC with the containerized, in-vessel
>NaturTech Composting System www.composter.com rcm at composter.com
>
>(c) Copyright 2006 United States - All rights reserved
>
>Members posting CC copies to the list and other addresses will have
>their posting privelages suspended. No exceptions!
>
>Opinions expressed represent only the poster and are not necessarily the
>opinion or policy of any organization.
>
>Non-members of USCC are encouraged to join the Council through our
>website at: http://www.compostingcouncil.org/membership.cfm For
>discussion list policies and information regarding subscribing,
>unsubscribing, digest or other options, go
>to:http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>
>For additional help in unsubscribing or to report bugs and problems,
>send a message to the List Manager, Jim McNelly, at
>compost-owner at composter.com
>
>
>
>
>
--
Frank Shields
Soil Control Lab
42 Hangar way
Watsonville, CA 95076
(831) 724-5422 tel
(831) 724-3188 fax
frank at compostlab.com
www.compostlab.com
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