[USCC] Fecal Coliform testing issues -- Performance vs. Rules-Based Regulatory Evolution

[Dan Noble]

Hey Frank,

 

Thanks for your more precise discussion (than mine) of "rules" vs.
"performance."  

 

I became sensitized to this issue when I was a "stakeholder" on the US EPA's
"Advanced Monitoring Systems Pilot Project" a few years back.  So now, I
think you're challenging me to think more precisely about this distinction,
and I believe it's VERY important (for all of us "environmentalists") to do
so.  Also, I feel VERY strongly about this subject, because I think it
strikes at the heart of quickening science & technology innovation and
progress (i.e. enhancing environmental/watershed sustainability) while AT
THE SAME TIME protecting the environment to ever higher standards.  I trust
it's obvious to all of us that we want cleaner, healthier air, water and
soil for ourselves AND future generations... while AT THE SAME TIME we live
personally, socially and financially fulfilling lives.  (Just to make
explicit my social/environmental "performance" values and objectives).

 

"Performance" as I'm using the term is not ONLY just growing healthy plants,
but also the "performance" of the material inputs to the soil (e.g. pathogen
levels is a "performance" standard... i.e. it "performs safely" from
production, through transport to use)... also, salt, nutrients, etc., can be
"material" performance standards, too.  So performance CAN (not that it
should) be tested at various levels/stages throughout the material
production chain, from inputs (manure, biosolids, green residuals, food
waste), during processing, all phases of composting, end product (before and
after shipping) as you all have been discussing.  And then tested in the
soil as it's performing to either increase various parameters of soil
"performance" (e.g. water infiltration, water holding capacity, saturation,
nutrient availability and transport, plant growth, etc., etc.).  

 

Clearly, measuring all these performances on all of the applications all of
the time is  (currently) considered either impossible or way overkill (i.e.
too expensive, if not impossible). In fact, many of the compost providers
I've talked to in So. Calif. (as recently as yesterday) don't see a NEED to
even STA test their compost (now the new standard for Caltrans specs, as you
know).  So performance, the way I'm using it, must be thought of
holonically, to use an emerging systems theory term (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_%28philosophy%29 for definition of
"holon," an increasingly important concept for our times, I believe).   That
is, "performance" testing can be done throughout the resource acquisition,
product production and use stages (at least theoretically, if not
practically!).

 

By "rules" I mean certain actions regulators require the regulated community
to take that are attempting to function as surrogates for testing the actual
parameter in question... i.e. instead of testing it in real time, and
adjusting the management, in real time, to reach certain performance
outcomes.  For example, measuring time and temperature INSTEAD of actual
pathogen reduction (of course, again, in this case because it's "cheaper and
easier" to measure time and temperature than ACTUAL pathogen reduction).
Other "rules" could be building a certain type of structure (building,
aeration system, cement pad, filtering system, etc., etc.) to mitigate
against an occasional offensive release of some material (e.g. silt),
chemical (e.g. contaminant) or odor, or whatever.  The "rule" (constructed
system OR surrogate testing method) becomes the "standard" that it
regulated, rather than use "whatever means you can" to achieve the desired
performance outcome (performance standard).

 

Of course, so far, it is generally VASTLY easier to regulate environmental
"behavior" through "rules" than through "performance."  Performance seems to
require continuous monitoring and is influenced by many uncontrolled, or
uncontrollable(!?), influences.  As well as not having the technology to
measure performance (again, at this time), through the entire production,
distribution chain, through to its field use and performance.  So we settle
for a few key points in production (in the case of compost), combined with
certain "rules."

 

My point is that "rules" tend to stifle new methods for achieving specific
"performance" levels.  RULES tend to SLOW innovation.  We've seen this in
the entire environmental industry for the last two decades (I saw it
personally as Director of Research and Consulting with my former company,
Environmental Business International (www.ebjusa.com, publishers of the
Environmental Business Journal, a strategic publication that pays attention
to such issues for our readers, mostly environmental engineers and
technology providers). 

 

So the journey to move from "rules-based' regulations to "performance-based"
regulations is going to be a long one (why I call it a "journey" not a
"step").  But as we move to ever-more nano-technologies and wireless
data/info/communication technologies, our technical ability to "monitor"
performance throughout the chain will continue to increase (I started seeing
this with my field monitoring clients as well as in the Advanced Monitoring
Systems Pilot Project).  I predict that in the next two decades, we can (and
hopefully will) make great strides in moving in this direction (from rules
to performance based regulations).  

 

One of the places we're seeing it currently in California is in the
stormwater regulations.  A "Blue Ribbon Panel" (in "Storm Water Panel
Recommendations to the California State Water Resources Control Board:  The
Feasibility of Numeric Effluent Limits Applicable to Discharges of Storm
Water Associated with Municipal, Industrial and Construction Activities,
June 19, 2006"), concluded and recommended that in California we move toward
setting "numeric limits" for stormwater runoff into TMDL sensitive water
bodies (what I would call performance-based), and MOVE AWAY from simply
accepting certain stormwater "BMPs" (best management practices) (what I
would call rules-based), since "we don't know how they are actually
performing in the field application," the panel concluded and recommended.

 

So I hope this clarifies my distinction between rules and performance.  This
is going to be an ongoing conversation for years, likely decades, to come.
Truly a journey for our industry... and all watershed impacting, and
enhancing, industries!

 

Thanks, again, Frank for your clarifications... it induced me to clarify my
thinking (and expression) even further.

 

Onward!

Dan

 

 

Noble Resources Group

"Sustainable Market Development"

 

Dan Noble, President/CEO

Off: 619-303-3694

Cell: 619-992-8389

Fax: 619-589-9905

dan at resourcetrends.com

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: compost-bounces at composter.com [mailto:compost-bounces at composter.com]
On Behalf Of frank

Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 11:17 AM

Cc: 'US Composting Council Compost Discussion List'

Subject: Re: [USCC] FW: Re: Fecal Coliform testing issues

 

U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW Wyndham Orlando
Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007 The National forum for those
involved in the development and expansion of the composting and organics
recycling industry CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION FORMS, WORKSHOP AGENDAS,
EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES ARE AVAILABLE AT THE
USCC WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL THE USCC AT 631-737-4931 

 

 

Hi Dan,

Pathogen reduction is serious business especially when we consider 

biosolids. If we are to ever move biosolids into main stream composting, 

as I would like to see, we need solid data that known conditions (as 

shown in the lab using pure cultures) and procedure that will obtain the 

conditions in the compost that are required to kill all forms of the 

pathogens of interest. Then we need to take those conditions into the 

field and monitored (temperatures) and verify (fecal coliform at end of 

heat : ) ) that they have been met. More than performance based. These 

need be solid rules.

 

I agree with the "performance based" approach and "advanced monitoring 

and reporting/information/communication systems"

you suggest.  But this will only work if the CaDOT User, and others,  is 

given flexibility in the materials he/she is permitted to use - and this 

is not often the case.

Also, to report a 'good performance' when using a certain product there 

must be included a characterization of the product used so it can be 

repeated. The testing required from CaDOT and most other agencies does 

not give the necessary info to properly match the material to the 

results IMO. And, as you mention we need weather and environment 

conditions along with soil and plant type. And someone dedicated to 

monitor and report how the site is doing.

 

A great project, and with the right people, could make big advances in 

using compost, and compost related products.

 

Frank

 

 

Dan Noble wrote:

 

>Frank and Eliot,

>

>Once again another argument for "performance based" rather than "rules 

>based" regulations.  This has been a problem with the "rules based" 

>approach for decades... it literally "blocks" innovation that arises 

>continuously out of new science and new technology.  If we ever plan to 

>have ever enhanced watershed environments, whose management is based on 

>ever improving science and technology, we need to get on the journey of 

>crafting and implementing evergreen, performance based approaches to 

>management and regulation, it seems to me.

>

>We see it operating here in California constantly with all the CalEPA 

>boards (air, water and waste).  Seems that its time to start moving 

>forward with new, more evergreen approaches to environmental/watershed 

>regulations.  My belief is that we now have the science and technology 

>to head in this direction (mainly advanced monitoring and 

>reporting/information/communication systems).

>

>Is there anyone (or group) within USCC that is addressing this, albeit 

>much bigger, regulatory issue?

>

>Sincerely,

>Dan

>

>Association of Compost Producers

>"We Build Healthy Soil"

> 

>Dan Noble

>Executive Director

>Bus:  (619) 303-3694

>Cell:  (619) 992-8389

>Fax:  (619) 589-9905

>dan at resourcetrends.com

>www.healthysoil.org 

>

>-----Original Message-----

>From: compost-bounces at composter.com 

>[mailto:compost-bounces at composter.com]

>On Behalf Of frank

>Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 3:26 PM

>Cc: US Composting Council Compost Discussion List

>Subject: Re: [USCC] FW: Re: Fecal Coliform testing issues

>

>U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW Wyndham 

>Orlando Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007 The National forum 

>for those involved in the development and expansion of the composting 

>and organics recycling industry CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION FORMS, 

>WORKSHOP AGENDAS, EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES 

>ARE AVAILABLE AT THE USCC WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL 

>THE USCC AT 631-737-4931

>

>

>Eliot,

>Does that mean that at 55 deg c it has been shown in the lab that is

>enough time to kill all the pathogens and their associated more 

>resistant stages? I am just wondering where 55 deg for three days comes 

>from and what it is based on.

>

>It seems it is very hard to make changes to about anything because once

>a group has completed a task it is disbanded and there is not another 

>with the job of keeping the regs or procedures updated as new science 

>and experience may dictate.

>

>Thanks again

>

>Frank

>

>

>

>

>epsteinee at comcast.net wrote:

>

>  

>

>>Frank

>> 

>>E. coli is a bactrerium in the genus Escherichia and Klebsiella sp. is

>>in the genus Klebsiella . These are both Enterobacteriaceae.

>> 

>>Facultative bacteria are able to live with or without oxygen.

>> 

>>I appologize for not making the formula more clear. D is the time

>>depending on t which is the temperature. So if you put in55C you will 

>>get three days.

>> 

>>It is very difficult to get EPA to make a change if it is in the rule.

>>You may wish to contact Jim Smith at EPA.  His e-mail is:

>>smith.james at epamail.epa.gov <mailto:smith.james at epamail.epa.gov>

>> 

>>Eliot

>> 

>>--

>>Eliot Epstein

>>19 Preston Place

>>North Easton, MA 02356

>>Tel: 508-238-1631

>>Cell: 781-603-7151

>>E-mail: epsteinee at comcast.net

>> 

>>

>>    -------------- Original message --------------

>>    From: frank <frank at compostlab.com>

>>

>>    > U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW

>>    > Wyndham Orlando Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007

>>    > The National forum for those involved in the development and

>>    expansion of the

>>    > composting and organics recycling industry

>>    > CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION FORMS, WORKSHOP AGENDAS,

>>    > EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES ARE

>>    AVAILABLE AT THE USCC

>>    > WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL THE USCC AT 631-737-4931

>>    >

>>    >

>>    > Jennifer and composters,

>>    >

>>    > Jennifer Appel wrote:

>>    >

>>    > >Method A believes the following:

>>    > >

>>    > >Add a high nitrogen starter to the pile and heat it up to kill the

>>    > >pathogens.

>>    > >

>>    > >What this ac tually does is kill both the pathogens and the

>>    beneficial

>>    > >species. (But this method is not looking for beneficial

>>    organisms only the

>>    > >removal of pathogens.) When the pile cools the bad guys come

>>    back first.

>>    > >(About the time you send in the sample for testing.)

>>    > >

>>    > >Because there was a synthetic starter used - the aerobic

>>    bacteria that eats

>>    > >pathogenic organisms WILL NOT start their function because the

>>    synthetic

>>    > >process is a chemical one and the biological process CAN NOT

>>    START until the

>>    > >chemical reaction has finished its process.

>>    > >

>>    > >One way for Method A to achieve an aerobic pathogen free

>>    status, is to

>>    > >inoculate the pile with the beneficial organisms after the pile

>>    cools to a

>>    > >temperature and aerobic status that can support your new

>>    organisms.

>>    > >

>>    > >Once this has been achieved, the biology will perform the

>>    nutrient c ycling

>>    > >functions required to KEEP the pile aerobic and pathogen free.

>>    > >

>>    > >

>>    > >

>>    > You make a good point. With windrow composting, as I see it, the

>>    hot

>>    > part is killing all while at the same time the microbes in the

>>    cooler

>>    > band on the outside are getting established. Then we turn it all

>>    over

>>    > and it starts again. I don't think the pathogens (I'm not

>>    talking about

>>    > the indicator FC) will get established, as you suggest, because the

>>    > aerobic conditions common in the cooler parts of the pile are

>>    not to

>>    > their liking. So I think this is a process of killing the spores of

>>    > pathogens along with the vegetative phase and providing a place

>>    where

>>    > the benificials will take over. But your point is well taken

>>    when in

>>    > vessel or container composting. That kills off all and then

>>    readies the

>>    > material for whatever gets a foothold. Being aerobic I still see

>>    it as

>>    > unlikely a pathogen that normally lives in anaerobic conditions

>>    will

>>    > take over. FC will along with all the other common microbes

>>    surrounding

>>    > the pile, or on equipment that survived the process. All good

>>    reasons to

>>    > test after the heat phase.

>>    >

>>    > >Method B: (rarely used in large commercial composting operations)

>>    > >It is also possible to NOT USE a synthetic high nitrogen

>>    starter. This is a

>>    > >bit more advanced. This method requires microscope time to

>>    assess the

>>    > >organisms in the pile, then feed stocks that promote specific

>>    aerobic

>>    > >organism activity to mitigate pathogenic organisms are added in

>>    appropriate

>>    > >proportion to promote a fully functioning aerobic compost pile

>>    that can

>>    > >provide 2-3 tons of Nitrogen supply if all the biology is

>>    functioning

>>    > >correctly.

>>    > >

>>    > >The SECOND reason I see for why pathogens reestablish in a pile

>>    is becau se

>>    > >far too many compost operations OVER WATER the pile every 3rd

>>    day and thus

>>    > >de-oxygenate it! Three steps forward and two steps back is a

>>    hard way to

>>    > >make a good product. I understand the intent of the rules,

>>    however, most of

>>    > >the operations I have visited could make a better product in a

>>    shorter

>>    > >period of time if they just used LESS WATER in conjunction with

>>    negatively

>>    > >aerating the piles!!!

>>    > >

>>    > >Moisture content and optimum temperature will vary depending on

>>    the location

>>    > >where the pile is made, type of feed stock, type of pathogen or

>>    beneficial

>>    > >organisms and the type of aeration method used... Minnesota

>>    composting is

>>    > >very different from South Texas composting with respect to

>>    temperature, time

>>    > >and moisture content - and to add to that - the type of raw

>>    materials used

>>    > >will require a different amount of water depending on the

>>    biological species

>>    > >requirement in the pile. (MSW versus food residual vs. cotton

>>    burr,

>>    > >in-vessel, static, etc.)

>>    > >

>>    > >ALL soil has 3 properties: chemical, physical and BIOLOGICAL!

>>    The first two

>>    > >have enough science behind them to establish good composting

>>    practices and

>>    > >it would appear an opportune time to add the third element

>>    based on

>>    > >scientific data in order to achieve a smoother process.

>>    > >

>>    > >

>>    > As I see it all this should happen, and will, after the heat phase.

>>    > Because we can -not- count on it happening in the way we want

>>    due to so

>>    > many variables (you point out many) and based on no 'lab prove

>>    method'

>>    > we should not include this in the pathogen reduction program. As

>>    it is

>>    > now we do include this in the program and it is giving us

>>    misleading

>>    > results and preventing other stabilization processes from being

>>    used -

>>    > like vermistabilization.

>>    >

>>    > Frank.

>>    >

>>    >

>>    >

>>    > >

>>    > >

>>    > >

>>    >

>>    > --

>>    > Frank Shields

>>    > Soil Control Lab

>>    > 42 Hangar way

>>    > Watsonville, CA 95076

>>    > (831) 724-5422 tel

>>    > (831) 724-3188 fax

>>    > frank at compostlab.com

>>    > www.compostlab.com

>>    >

>>    >

>>    >

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>

 

-- 

Frank Shields

Soil Control Lab

42 Hangar way

Watsonville, CA  95076

(831) 724-5422 tel

(831) 724-3188 fax

frank at compostlab.com

www.compostlab.com

 

 

 

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