[USCC] FW: Re: FW: Re: Fecal Coliform testing issues
epsteinee@comcast.net
epsteinee at comcast.net
Sun Nov 5 09:15:24 CST 2006
--
Eliot Epstein
19 Preston Place
North Easton, MA 02356
Tel: 508-238-1631
Cell: 781-603-7151
E-mail: epsteinee at comcast.net
-------------- Forwarded Message: --------------
From: epsteinee at comcast.net
To: frank at compostlab.com, US Composting Council Compost Discussion List <compost at composter.com>
Subject: Re: [USCC] FW: Re: Fecal Coliform testing issues
Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 23:10:42 +0000
Frank
E. coli is a bactrerium in the genus Escherichia and Klebsiella sp. is in the genus Klebsiella . These are both Enterobacteriaceae.
Facultative bacteria are able to live with or without oxygen.
I appologize for not making the formula more clear. D is the time depending on t which is the temperature. So if you put in55C you will get three days.
It is very difficult to get EPA to make a change if it is in the rule. You may wish to contact Jim Smith at EPA. His e-mail is:
smith.james at epamail.epa.gov
Eliot
--
Eliot Epstein
19 Preston Place
North Easton, MA 02356
Tel: 508-238-1631
Cell: 781-603-7151
E-mail: epsteinee at comcast.net
-------------- Original message --------------
From: frank <frank at compostlab.com>
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>
> Jennifer and composters,
>
> Jennifer Appel wrote:
>
> >Method A believes the following:
> >
> >Add a high nitrogen starter to the pile and heat it up to kill the
> >pathogens.
> >
> >What this ac tually does is kill both the pathogens and the beneficial
> >species. (But this method is not looking for beneficial organisms only the
> >removal of pathogens.) When the pile cools the bad guys come back first.
> >(About the time you send in the sample for testing.)
> >
> >Because there was a synthetic starter used - the aerobic bacteria that eats
> >pathogenic organisms WILL NOT start their function because the synthetic
> >process is a chemical one and the biological process CAN NOT START until the
> >chemical reaction has finished its process.
> >
> >One way for Method A to achieve an aerobic pathogen free status, is to
> >inoculate the pile with the beneficial organisms after the pile cools to a
> >temperature and aerobic status that can support your new organisms.
> >
> >Once this has been achieved, the biology will perform the nutrient c ycling
> >functions required to KEEP the pile aerobic and pathogen free.
> >
> >
> >
> You make a good point. With windrow composting, as I see it, the hot
> part is killing all while at the same time the microbes in the cooler
> band on the outside are getting established. Then we turn it all over
> and it starts again. I don't think the pathogens (I'm not talking about
> the indicator FC) will get established, as you suggest, because the
> aerobic conditions common in the cooler parts of the pile are not to
> their liking. So I think this is a process of killing the spores of
> pathogens along with the vegetative phase and providing a place where
> the benificials will take over. But your point is well taken when in
> vessel or container composting. That kills off all and then readies the
> material for whatever gets a foothold. Being aerobic I still see it as
> unlikely a pathogen that normally lives in anaerobic conditions will
> take over. FC will along with all the other common microbes surrounding
> the pile, or on equipment that survived the process. All good reasons to
> test after the heat phase.
>
> >Method B: (rarely used in large commercial composting operations)
> >It is also possible to NOT USE a synthetic high nitrogen starter. This is a
> >bit more advanced. This method requires microscope time to assess the
> >organisms in the pile, then feed stocks that promote specific aerobic
> >organism activity to mitigate pathogenic organisms are added in appropriate
> >proportion to promote a fully functioning aerobic compost pile that can
> >provide 2-3 tons of Nitrogen supply if all the biology is functioning
> >correctly.
> >
> >The SECOND reason I see for why pathogens reestablish in a pile is becau se
> >far too many compost operations OVER WATER the pile every 3rd day and thus
> >de-oxygenate it! Three steps forward and two steps back is a hard way to
> >make a good product. I understand the intent of the rules, however, most of
> >the operations I have visited could make a better product in a shorter
> >period of time if they just used LESS WATER in conjunction with negatively
> >aerating the piles!!!
> >
> >Moisture content and optimum temperature will vary depending on the location
> >where the pile is made, type of feed stock, type of pathogen or beneficial
> >organisms and the type of aeration method used... Minnesota composting is
> >very different from South Texas composting with respect to temperature, time
> >and moisture content - and to add to that - the type of raw materials used
> >will require a different amount of water depending on the biological species
> >requirement in the pile. (MSW versus food residual vs. cotton burr,
> >in-vessel, static, etc.)
> >
> >ALL soil has 3 properties: chemical, physical and BIOLOGICAL! The first two
> >have enough science behind them to establish good composting practices and
> >it would appear an opportune time to add the third element based on
> >scientific data in order to achieve a smoother process.
> >
> >
> As I see it all this should happen, and will, after the heat phase.
> Because we can -not- count on it happening in the way we want due to so
> many variables (you point out many) and based on no 'lab prove method'
> we should not include this in the pathogen reduction program. As it is
> now we do include this in the program and it is giving us misleading
> results and preventing other stabilization processes from being used -
> like vermistabilization.
>
> Frank.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Frank Shields
> Soil Control Lab
> 42 Hangar way
> Watsonville, CA 95076
> (831) 724-5422 tel
> (831) 724-3188 fax
> frank at compostlab.com
> www.compostlab.com
>
>
>
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