[USCC] FW: Re: Fecal Coliform testing issues

[epsteinee@comcast.net]

Frank

E. coli is a bactrerium in the genus Escherichia and Klebsiella sp. is in the genus Klebsiella . These are both Enterobacteriaceae.

Facultative bacteria are able to live with or without oxygen.

I appologize for not making the formula more clear. D is the time depending on t which is the temperature. So if you put in55C you will get three days.

It is very difficult to get EPA to make a change if it is in the rule. You may wish to contact Jim Smith at EPA.  His e-mail is:
smith.james at epamail.epa.gov

Eliot

--
Eliot Epstein 
19 Preston Place 
North Easton, MA 02356 
Tel: 508-238-1631 
Cell: 781-603-7151 
E-mail: epsteinee at comcast.net

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: frank <frank at compostlab.com> 

> U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW 
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> 
> Jennifer and composters, 
> 
> Jennifer Appel wrote: 
> 
> >Method A believes the following: 
> > 
> >Add a high nitrogen starter to the pile and heat it up to kill the 
> >pathogens. 
> > 
> >What this actually does is kill both the pathogens and the beneficial 
> >species. (But this method is not looking for beneficial organisms only the 
> >removal of pathogens.) When the pile cools the bad guys come back first. 
> >(About the time you send in the sample for testing.) 
> > 
> >Because there was a synthetic starter used - the aerobic bacteria that eats 
> >pathogenic organisms WILL NOT start their function because the synthetic 
> >process is a chemical one and the biological process CAN NOT START until the 
> >chemical reaction has finished its process. 
> > 
> >One way for Method A to achieve an aerobic pathogen free status, is to 
> >inoculate the pile with the beneficial organisms after the pile cools to a 
> >temperature and aerobic status that can support your new organisms. 
> > 
> >Once this has been achieved, the biology will perform the nutrient cycling 
> >functions required to KEEP the pile aerobic and pathogen free. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> You make a good point. With windrow composting, as I see it, the hot 
> part is killing all while at the same time the microbes in the cooler 
> band on the outside are getting established. Then we turn it all over 
> and it starts again. I don't think the pathogens (I'm not talking about 
> the indicator FC) will get established, as you suggest, because the 
> aerobic conditions common in the cooler parts of the pile are not to 
> their liking. So I think this is a process of killing the spores of 
> pathogens along with the vegetative phase and providing a place where 
> the benificials will take over. But your point is well taken when in 
> vessel or container composting. That kills off all and then readies the 
> material for whatever gets a foothold. Being aerobic I still see it as 
> unlikely a pathogen that normally lives in anaerobic conditions will 
> take over. FC will along with all the other common microbes surrounding 
> the pile, or on equipment that survived the process. All good reasons to 
> test after the heat phase. 
> 
> >Method B: (rarely used in large commercial composting operations) 
> >It is also possible to NOT USE a synthetic high nitrogen starter. This is a 
> >bit more advanced. This method requires microscope time to assess the 
> >organisms in the pile, then feed stocks that promote specific aerobic 
> >organism activity to mitigate pathogenic organisms are added in appropriate 
> >proportion to promote a fully functioning aerobic compost pile that can 
> >provide 2-3 tons of Nitrogen supply if all the biology is functioning 
> >correctly. 
> > 
> >The SECOND reason I see for why pathogens reestablish in a pile is because 
> >far too many compost operations OVER WATER the pile every 3rd day and thus 
> >de-oxygenate it! Three steps forward and two steps back is a hard way to 
> >make a good product. I understand the intent of the rules, however, most of 
> >the operations I have visited could make a better product in a shorter 
> >period of time if they just used LESS WATER in conjunction with negatively 
> >aerating the piles!!! 
> > 
> >Moisture content and optimum temperature will vary depending on the location 
> >where the pile is made, type of feed stock, type of pathogen or beneficial 
> >organisms and the type of aeration method used... Minnesota composting is 
> >very different from South Texas composting with respect to temperature, time 
> >and moisture content - and to add to that - the type of raw materials used 
> >will require a different amount of water depending on the biological species 
> >requirement in the pile. (MSW versus food residual vs. cotton burr, 
> >in-vessel, static, etc.) 
> > 
> >ALL soil has 3 properties: chemical, physical and BIOLOGICAL! The first two 
> >have enough science behind them to establish good composting practices and 
> >it would appear an opportune time to add the third element based on 
> >scientific data in order to achieve a smoother process. 
> > 
> > 
> As I see it all this should happen, and will, after the heat phase. 
> Because we can -not- count on it happening in the way we want due to so 
> many variables (you point out many) and based on no 'lab prove method' 
> we should not include this in the pathogen reduction program. As it is 
> now we do include this in the program and it is giving us misleading 
> results and preventing other stabilization processes from being used - 
> like vermistabilization. 
> 
> Frank. 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Frank Shields 
> Soil Control Lab 
> 42 Hangar way 
> Watsonville, CA 95076 
> (831) 724-5422 tel 
> (831) 724-3188 fax 
> frank at compostlab.com 
> www.compostlab.com 
> 
> 
> 
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