[USCC] FW: Re: Fecal Coliform testing issues
frank
frank at compostlab.com
Wed Nov 1 16:39:38 CST 2006
Eliot,
Thanks for that info. I never heard of Klebsiella Coli.
And am I right about facultative E. Coli being able to live in both
aerobic and anaerobic environments?
And please explain in a way I can understand your D= 131,700,000 / 10 to
the raised power of 0.1400t.
And how does one get USEPA to make changes?
Thanks Eliot - you always have a lot of info but to too rarely give it out!
Frank
epsteinee at comcast.net wrote:
>U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW
>Wyndham Orlando Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007
>The National forum for those involved in the development and expansion of the composting and organics recycling industry
>CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION FORMS, WORKSHOP AGENDAS,
>EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES ARE AVAILABLE AT THE USCC WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL THE USCC AT 631-737-4931
>
>
>Fecal coliform bacteria consist of two genera, Escherichia and Klebsiella. E.coli is the most common, fecal coliform bacteria, and are facultative inhabitants of the large intestine of humans.
>
>There is a time-temperature relationship for USEP pathogen reduction for composting. This is D=131,700,000/10 to the raised power 0.1400t. If you insert 55C you will obtain 3 days at 55C, which is the basis for the regulation (see pg. 87 EPA/625/R-92/013 Revised 2003 Control of Pathogens and Vector Attraction in Sewage Sludge. Therefore at lower temperatures the time requirement would have to be greater and at higher temperatures the time requirement is less. However for composting USEPA does not give you a choice. The requirements are 55C for three days for aerated static pile and in-vessel and for windrow 15 days with 5 turnings and temperature of 55C.
>
>Eliot
>
>--
>Eliot Epstein
>19 Preston Place
>North Easton, MA 02356
>Tel: 508-238-1631
>Cell: 781-603-7151
>E-mail: epsteinee at comcast.net
>
>-------------- Original message --------------
>From: frank <frank at compostlab.com>
>
>
>
>>U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW
>>Wyndham Orlando Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007
>>The National forum for those involved in the development and expansion of the
>>composting and organics recycling industry
>>CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION FORMS, WORKSHOP AGENDAS,
>>EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES ARE AVAILABLE AT THE USCC
>>WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL THE USCC AT 631-737-4931
>>
>>
>>David,
>>Few comments below:
>>
>>Schellinger, David A. wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Fecal coliform bacteria will not survive long under aerobic conditions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Is this true? I am not a microbiologist but I thought FC was a
>>facultative non-spore forming anaerobic.
>>Do we care? FC is everywhere in agriculture (deer, rabits, birds). FC
>>is used aas an indicator.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Coliform bacteria indigenous to soil environments are not fecal
>>>coliforms. I think you are confusing the two coliform bacteria groups.
>>>Most fecal organisms are easily killed by aeration, though a few strains
>>>can persist for longer periods under aerobic conditions as endospores,
>>>or under week facultative states.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Now you are over my head. But if they are killed by simply aerobic
>>conditions than that is more argument we should test directly after heat
>>because if they are killed during the time from heat to end of curing it
>>will give us a false positive that heat has been suficient to kill
>>'real' pathogens during the heat phase. We show it safe when in fact it
>>is not.
>>
>>
>>
>>>You are forgetting that the most
>>>important attribute of the composting process is aerobic aeration
>>>conditions. Therefore, temperature/time treatments under aerobic
>>>conditions are responsible for reducing pathogens in composting
>>>biosolids, not just time and temperature.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>So you are saying that aerobic conditions alone will kill the spores,
>>cyst and other more resisitant form of obligate anaerobics?
>>I didn't know this. If that is the case than why should we worry about
>>it at all when 'all' compost is used in aerobic conditions? If what you
>>say is true all pathogens will be killed in the field and no need to
>>wash the carrets.
>>
>>
>>
>>>I would like to see the
>>>evidence that suggests that high temperatures for short periods provide
>>>the same pathogen reduction in composting biosolids as a lower
>>>temperatures for a longer periods of time. I would also like to see a
>>>probability estimation of pathogen regrowth in biosolids under aerated
>>>vs. anaerobic conditions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>When you say 'lower temperatures' a relative term. We use spores on
>>paper to make sure our autoclave has reached temperature and time. The
>>spores do not break while in storage at room temperature and in aerobic
>>conditions.
>>
>>I would also like to see studies of all the many real pathogen and their
>>regrowth during aerobic and anerobic conditions. But because there are
>>so many, many still unknown, tests that have yet to be developed and
>>testing at suitable detection limits problems it can't be done. Heat and
>>Time with know fact that most all the pathogens we know will be killed
>>within the range we require is best we can do.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Under what temperature regimes can the pathogens survive? Fecal
>>>coliforms can persist even at lower temperatures, as well as temperature
>>>between 45 and 49 C. At 120 F proteins start to disfigure, indicating
>>>that pathogen destruction is possible even at 49 C.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>What about spores?
>>
>>
>>
>>>The question is, do
>>>all biosolids composting processes meet the 55 C pathogen reduction
>>>limit? I would say that based on the evidence at hand, many composting
>>>facilities have difficulty meeting the temperature requirements using
>>>fresh biosolids. Therefore, your time/temperature argument is invalid
>>>if you suggest that all composting processes are equally capable of
>>>generating adequate temperatures for sufficient times to meet PFRP
>>>requirements.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I certainly hope they meet temperature requirements!! But it would be
>>a lot easier if they would mix biosolids in small amounts into yardwaste
>>with its high concentrations of 'available' carbon. Woodchips and
>>partial stabilized biosolids make a poor compost blend.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Why does pathogens regrowth occur in composted materials? Of coarse not
>>>all pathogens are destroyed during the PFRP process. So, if conditions
>>>are adequate, pathogen populations can increase after composting is
>>>complete.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Agree
>>But lets make sure we do all we can to make sure temp & time have been
>>met. Temperature readings, calander and FC tests at the end are the
>>tools we have. And, I agree with you that regrowth of 'real' oblagate
>>anaerobics are unlikely to occur during aerobic stabilizing and curing
>>conditions. Much less likely to have regrowth than the facultative
>>anaerobe fecal coliform. And a composting process is much less likely to
>>be recontaminated with the 'real' pathogens where FC can easily
>>recontaminenate a compost with birds, mice etc.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>What conditions are necessary to allow anaerobic organisms to
>>>repopulate composted biosolids? IF COMPOSTED MATERIALS ARE REALLY
>>>STABLE, INADEQUATE NUTRIENT AND CARBON SUPPLIES SHOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR
>>>SUSTAINABLE ELEVATED MICROBIOLOGICAL ACTIVITY. IF THE COMPOSTED
>>>MATERIALS ARE STABLE, AEROBIC CONDITIONS SHOULD PERSIST IN THE MATERIAL.
>>>IF ANAEROBIC CONDITIONS PERSIST IN CURING PILES, ANAEROBIC PATHOGENIC
>>>MICROORGANISMS CAN PERSIST ONLY IF SUFFICIENT AVAILABLE CARBON AND
>>>NUTRIENTS ARE PRESENT. I SUGGEST THEREFORE THAT REGROWTH CAN ONLY OCCUR
>>>IN UNSTABLE AND ANAEROBIC MATERIALS!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I agree compost should be stabilizazed to be called 'compost' and to
>>reduce toxic effects when used. This to reduce the chance ALL types of
>>microbes cannot make a run for it that creat a huge oxygen demand etc.
>>
>>
>>
>>>I see a problem using vermiculture in stabilizing composted materials,
>>>especially where large scale composting operations are concerned. The
>>>large piles, even after the onset of stability, can produce very high
>>>temperatures when aerated because the materials provide insulation
>>>properties for trapping heat. It is doubtful if worms would survive
>>>very well in this material unless it is distributed in much smaller
>>>piles for vermicomposting.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Of course the vermicomposters do not just toss in a bunch of workms into
>>a large pile! There are systems that are a foot or two deep on moving
>>belts. They know what they are doing. Worms do a great job os
>>stabilizing products and produce the best ag additives I know of.
>>
>>Frank
>>
>>
>>--
>>Frank Shields
>>Soil Control Lab
>>42 Hangar way
>>Watsonville, CA 95076
>>(831) 724-5422 tel
>>(831) 724-3188 fax
>>frank at compostlab.com
>>www.compostlab.com
>>
>>
>>
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>_______________________________________________
>Compost maillist - Compost at composter.com
>http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>
>This list is a service provided by the US Composting Council.
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>Ongoing Sponsors of the USCC Discussion list are:
>
>Food Industry Environmental Network (FIEN), a regulatory and policy e-mail alert service for environmental, food and agricultural industry professionals.
>Contact Jack Cooper 301/384-8287 JLC at fien.com --- www.fien.com
>
>Renewable Carbon Management, LLC with the containerized, in-vessel NaturTech Composting System www.composter.com rcm at composter.com
>
>(c) Copyright 2006 United States - All rights reserved
>
>Members posting CC copies to the list and other addresses will have their posting privelages suspended. No exceptions!
>
>Opinions expressed represent only the poster and are not necessarily the opinion or policy of any organization.
>
>Non-members of USCC are encouraged to join the Council through our website at: http://www.compostingcouncil.org/membership.cfm For discussion list policies and information regarding subscribing, unsubscribing, digest or other options, go to:http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>
>For additional help in unsubscribing or to report bugs and problems, send a message to the List Manager, Jim McNelly, at compost-owner at composter.com
>
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>
--
Frank Shields
Soil Control Lab
42 Hangar way
Watsonville, CA 95076
(831) 724-5422 tel
(831) 724-3188 fax
frank at compostlab.com
www.compostlab.com
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