[USCC] FW: Re: Fecal Coliform testing issues
Jennifer Appel
design at landscapehouston.com
Wed Nov 1 10:25:08 CST 2006
I think there is more going on here than meets the eye.
The two of you are trying to compare the apple method to the banana method -
both work but quite differently.
Method A believes the following:
Add a high nitrogen starter to the pile and heat it up to kill the
pathogens.
What this actually does is kill both the pathogens and the beneficial
species. (But this method is not looking for beneficial organisms only the
removal of pathogens.) When the pile cools the bad guys come back first.
(About the time you send in the sample for testing.)
Because there was a synthetic starter used - the aerobic bacteria that eats
pathogenic organisms WILL NOT start their function because the synthetic
process is a chemical one and the biological process CAN NOT START until the
chemical reaction has finished its process.
One way for Method A to achieve an aerobic pathogen free status, is to
inoculate the pile with the beneficial organisms after the pile cools to a
temperature and aerobic status that can support your new organisms.
Once this has been achieved, the biology will perform the nutrient cycling
functions required to KEEP the pile aerobic and pathogen free.
Method B: (rarely used in large commercial composting operations)
It is also possible to NOT USE a synthetic high nitrogen starter. This is a
bit more advanced. This method requires microscope time to assess the
organisms in the pile, then feed stocks that promote specific aerobic
organism activity to mitigate pathogenic organisms are added in appropriate
proportion to promote a fully functioning aerobic compost pile that can
provide 2-3 tons of Nitrogen supply if all the biology is functioning
correctly.
The SECOND reason I see for why pathogens reestablish in a pile is because
far too many compost operations OVER WATER the pile every 3rd day and thus
de-oxygenate it! Three steps forward and two steps back is a hard way to
make a good product. I understand the intent of the rules, however, most of
the operations I have visited could make a better product in a shorter
period of time if they just used LESS WATER in conjunction with negatively
aerating the piles!!!
Moisture content and optimum temperature will vary depending on the location
where the pile is made, type of feed stock, type of pathogen or beneficial
organisms and the type of aeration method used... Minnesota composting is
very different from South Texas composting with respect to temperature, time
and moisture content - and to add to that - the type of raw materials used
will require a different amount of water depending on the biological species
requirement in the pile. (MSW versus food residual vs. cotton burr,
in-vessel, static, etc.)
ALL soil has 3 properties: chemical, physical and BIOLOGICAL! The first two
have enough science behind them to establish good composting practices and
it would appear an opportune time to add the third element based on
scientific data in order to achieve a smoother process.
Jennifer Appel, RLA, ASLA, LI, CSFIA
TX Landscape Architect # 1930
TX Licensed Irrigator # 4951
Certified Soil Food Web Advisor
www.LandscapeHouston.com
www.LandscapeVitamins.com
713-263-1682 office
713-263-0395 fax
-----Original Message-----
From: compost-bounces at composter.com [mailto:compost-bounces at composter.com]
On Behalf Of Schellinger, David A.
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:10 PM
To: US Composting Council Compost Discussion List
Subject: Re: [USCC] FW: Re: Fecal Coliform testing issues
U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW
Wyndham Orlando Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007
The National forum for those involved in the development and expansion of
the composting and organics recycling industry
CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION FORMS, WORKSHOP AGENDAS,
EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES ARE AVAILABLE AT THE
USCC WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL THE USCC AT 631-737-4931
Frank,
Fecal coliform bacteria will not survive long under aerobic conditions.
Coliform bacteria indigenous to soil environments are not fecal
coliforms. I think you are confusing the two coliform bacteria groups.
Most fecal organisms are easily killed by aeration, though a few strains
can persist for longer periods under aerobic conditions as endospores,
or under week facultative states. You are forgetting that the most
important attribute of the composting process is aerobic aeration
conditions. Therefore, temperature/time treatments under aerobic
conditions are responsible for reducing pathogens in composting
biosolids, not just time and temperature. I would like to see the
evidence that suggests that high temperatures for short periods provide
the same pathogen reduction in composting biosolids as a lower
temperatures for a longer periods of time. I would also like to see a
probability estimation of pathogen regrowth in biosolids under aerated
vs. anaerobic conditions.
Under what temperature regimes can the pathogens survive? Fecal
coliforms can persist even at lower temperatures, as well as temperature
between 45 and 49 C. At 120 F proteins start to disfigure, indicating
that pathogen destruction is possible even at 49 C. The question is, do
all biosolids composting processes meet the 55 C pathogen reduction
limit? I would say that based on the evidence at hand, many composting
facilities have difficulty meeting the temperature requirements using
fresh biosolids. Therefore, your time/temperature argument is invalid
if you suggest that all composting processes are equally capable of
generating adequate temperatures for sufficient times to meet PFRP
requirements.
Why does pathogens regrowth occur in composted materials? Of coarse not
all pathogens are destroyed during the PFRP process. So, if conditions
are adequate, pathogen populations can increase after composting is
complete. What conditions are necessary to allow anaerobic organisms to
repopulate composted biosolids? IF COMPOSTED MATERIALS ARE REALLY
STABLE, INADEQUATE NUTRIENT AND CARBON SUPPLIES SHOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR
SUSTAINABLE ELEVATED MICROBIOLOGICAL ACTIVITY. IF THE COMPOSTED
MATERIALS ARE STABLE, AEROBIC CONDITIONS SHOULD PERSIST IN THE MATERIAL.
IF ANAEROBIC CONDITIONS PERSIST IN CURING PILES, ANAEROBIC PATHOGENIC
MICROORGANISMS CAN PERSIST ONLY IF SUFFICIENT AVAILABLE CARBON AND
NUTRIENTS ARE PRESENT. I SUGGEST THEREFORE THAT REGROWTH CAN ONLY OCCUR
IN UNSTABLE AND ANAEROBIC MATERIALS!!!
I see a problem using vermiculture in stabilizing composted materials,
especially where large scale composting operations are concerned. The
large piles, even after the onset of stability, can produce very high
temperatures when aerated because the materials provide insulation
properties for trapping heat. It is doubtful if worms would survive
very well in this material unless it is distributed in much smaller
piles for vermicomposting.
Dave Schellinger
-----Original Message-----
From: compost-bounces at composter.com
[mailto:compost-bounces at composter.com] On Behalf Of frank
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 12:10 PM
Cc: US Composting Council Compost Discussion List
Subject: Re: [USCC] FW: Re: Fecal Coliform testing issues
U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW Wyndham
Orlando Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007 The National forum
for those involved in the development and expansion of the composting
and organics recycling industry CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION FORMS,
WORKSHOP AGENDAS, EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES
ARE AVAILABLE AT THE USCC WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL THE
USCC AT 631-737-4931
Hi David,
A few comments below:
Schellinger, David A. wrote:
>Frank,
>Where is your evidence that only heating is required to kill pathogens,
>when aeration and microbiological competition, inhibition and enzymatic
>activity contribute a significant amount to the demise of pathogens?
>
>
All this is true but heat and time are the only sure fire proof the
composting process goes through.
>Pathogens would not be able to reinfest composted sewage under well
>aerated conditions and probably at a lower temperature.
>
>
The lower temperatures from 50 deg. C will make it more inviting for
regrowth. And perhaps there is not likely a reinfest of pathogens, but
any resistant forms of the pathogen will survive for a later, more
opportune time.
>Do to the nature of most sewage sludge that is composted, it would be
>very difficult to change the pathogen reduction phase of composting to
>the end of the heating phase, after the readily available carbon and
>nutrient sources have been depleted. This makes little sense to me.
>
>
After the pathogen reduction phase (PRP) the composting process must
continue until stabilization has occurred to be 'compost'. Yard waste
where new wood gets exposed with every turning is an example. Also other
types of composting (enclosed) where there may be only a few days at the
high temperatures. PRP has little to do with stability. In fact What I
would like to see is after the PRP the composting process for food waste
continue using vermistabilization and that entire industry cannot occur
if fecal coliform ((FC) tests are required at 'sale'. Because FC is so
common, versatile and will grow in both aerobic and anaerobic conditions
its up and downs after the PRP stage has little to do regarding if the
more resistant forms of pathogens have been killed during the heat.
>I conclude that changing the curing and storage to improve aeration
>would do more for eliminating pathogens than would changing period of
>pathogen reduction. This may include curing in smaller piles, or
>aerating curing piles more thoroughly.
>
>
If you believe aeration is what kills pathogens then we should not worry
about it at all because the soil the compost goes in -must- be aerobic
or the plants will not grow. I am not a microbiologist so may be way off
on this but I think the more resistant forms will survive aerobic
conditions for years until ingested. I think we must really concentrate
on making sure the heat phase is working as planned with increased
temperature readings and FC test at the end to ensure proper mixing has
occured. About 18% of the compost samples we test fail the FC test. I
believe most have actually gone through proper heat phase and the fecal
has just regrown in the warmer, more ideal conditions.
Frank
>Dave Schellinger
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: compost-bounces at composter.com
>[mailto:compost-bounces at composter.com] On Behalf Of frank
>Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 6:49 PM
>To: US Composting Council Compost Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [USCC] FW: Re: Fecal Coliform testing issues
>
>U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW Wyndham
>Orlando Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007 The National forum
>for those involved in the development and expansion of the composting
>and organics recycling industry CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION FORMS,
>WORKSHOP AGENDAS, EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES
>ARE AVAILABLE AT THE USCC WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL
>THE USCC AT 631-737-4931
>
>
>Eliot, Composters,
>
>I would like the Pathogen Reduction phase to finish at the end of the
>heat phase, but still require stabilization as a requirement for a
>'compost'. It seems it should end at the heat phase because that is the
>only place in composting that will kill all the more resistant forms of
>pathogens - it must happen here or it will not happen.
>Stabilization can then be completed using vermistabilization (or
>conventional means) and proof of being stabilized via a TMECC CO2
>method. Requiring a FC test after stabilization via heat composting and
>after curing takes place (at sale) seems to disallow others forms of
>stabilizing processes. And once the pathogens have been killed it
>should not matter. IMO Frank
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>epsteinee at comcast.net wrote:
>
>
>
>>U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW Wyndham
>>Orlando Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007 The National forum
>>for those involved in the development and expansion of the composting
>>and organics recycling industry CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION
>>FORMS,
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>WORKSHOP AGENDAS, EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES
>>ARE AVAILABLE AT THE USCC WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL
>>THE USCC AT 631-737-4931
>>
>>
>>If a sample had fecal coliform (FC) bacteria when shipped, there could
>>
>>
>be regrowth. When New York City sent their biosolids to Texas and
>Colorado they found that before shippment they met the USEPA fecal
>coliform count of less than 2 million as required cor Class B. When the
>material arrived in the west the count was higher and did not met the
>regulations.
>
>
>>USEPA's regulations 40CFR503 state that the release of a product is
>>
>>
>based on testing before shipment. Therefore one should test the product
>before shipment and avoid a second remote test. The test should be
>reported as MPN. The membrane filter method is not allowed.One needs to
>understand the rational for the 1000 FC regulatory requirement. In 1988
>Yanko for LA County Sanitation Districts conducted a study for USEPA.
>He found that when the FC count was below 1000 MPN per gram total dry
>solids no Salmonella sp. were detected (details in Epstein, 1997 "The
>Science of Composting" pg. 459). Appendix F of the regulations provides
>for sample preparation for fecal coliform and Salmonella sp. bacteria.
>
>
>>I have always advised my clients to test for Salmonella sp. bacteria
>>
>>
>rather than fecal coliform.
>
>
>>Eliot Epstein
>>Epstein Environmental Consultants, LLC
>>
>>--
>>Eliot Epstein
>>19 Preston Place
>>North Easton, MA 02356
>>Tel: 508-238-1631
>>Cell: 781-603-7151
>>E-mail: epsteinee at comcast.net
>>
>>-------------- Forwarded Message: --------------
>>From: epsteinee at comcast.net
>>To: US Composting Council Compost Discussion List
>><compost at composter.com>
>>Subject: Re: [USCC] Fecal Coliform testing issues
>>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:33:47 +0000
>>
>>If a sample had fecal coliform (FC) bacteria when shipped, there could
>>
>>
>be regrowth. When New York City sent their biosolids to Texas and
>Colorado they found that before shippment they met the USEPA fecal
>coliform count of less than 2 million as required cor Class B. When the
>material arrived in the west the count was higher and did not met the
>regulations.
>
>
>>USEPA's regulations 40CFR503 state that the release of a product is
>>
>>
>based on testing before shipment. Therefore one should test the product
>before shipment and avoid a second remote test. The test should be
>reported as MPN. The membrane filter method is not allowed.One needs to
>understand the rational for the 1000 FC regulatory requirement. In 1988
>Yanko for LA County Sanitation Districts conducted a study for USEPA.
>He found that when the FC count was below 1000 MPN per gram total dry
>solids no Salmonella sp. were detected (details in Epstein, 1997 "The
>Science of Composting" pg. 459). Appendix F of the regulations provides
>for sample preparation for fecal coliform and Salmonella sp. bacteria.
>
>
>>I have always advised my clients to test for Salmonella sp. bacteria
>>
>>
>rather than fecal coliform.
>
>
>>Eliot Epstein
>>Epstein Environmental Consultants, LLC
>>
>>--
>>Eliot Epstein PhD
>>Adjunct Professor of Public Health
>>Boston University
>>19 Preston Place
>>North Easton, MA 02356
>>Tel: 508-238-1631
>>Cell: 781-603-7151
>>E-mail: epsteinee at comcast.net
>>
>>-------------- Original message --------------
>>From: ALFRED RATTIE <arconsulting1 at verizon.net>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW Wyndham
>>>Orlando Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007 The National forum
>>>for those involved in the development and expansion of the composting
>>>and organics recycling industry CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION
>>>FORMS, WORKSHOP AGENDAS, EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP
>>>OPPORTUNITIES ARE AVAILABLE AT THE USCC
>>>WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL THE USCC AT 631-737-4931
>>>
>>>
>>>Some participants of the USCC's STA Program are experiencing a
>>>failure
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>to meet pathogen reduction (fecal coliform) standards as required by
>>>EPA 503 regulations. This, while not a seemingly unusual situation;
>>>- does not always occur with a given producer's compost
>>>- sometimes occurs only after shipping to a distant STA lab, but not
>>>during local lab testing (some producers test twice)
>>>- is occurring with both yard trimming and biosolids compost Two
>>>examples of recent problems are listed below:
>>>*********************************************************************
>>>*
>>>**********
>>>*********************************************************************
>>>*
>>>***
>>>1) I had a series of conversation with an STA lab and several others
>>>regarding the fecal regrowth issues. Case in point, a recent analysis
>>>showing a fecal count of 1,900 was received. The five windrows that
>>>were composited and sampled for this test each passed local lab PFRP
>>>
>>>
>testing, i.e. fecal coliform analysis.
>
>
>>>I have documented proof of this. Now we have a set of lab results
>>>that
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>reflects data that makes this a class 2 product rather than a class 1
>>>product that it < BR>> started out as when it came out of the PFRP
>>>process. Again, we have records documenting time and temperature data
>>>
>>>
>as well as the local lab fecal colifrom results. What would account for
>this?
>
>
>>>2) I was failing fecal coliform testing when I shipped my compost to
>>>an STA lab using the prescribed TMECC practices. This ended when I
>>>used a courier service to make an immediate delivery. Is there a
>>>regrowth issue associated with shipping and handling?
>>>*********************************************************************
>>>*
>>>**********
>>>*********************************************************************
>>>*
>>>*** The USCC's STA Program requires participants to pass both
>>>pathogen
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>and metals testing. We are struggling to understand why these compost
>>>producers are experiencing this problem. All input is welcome.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Al Rattie
>>>USCC STA Program Adminis trative/Technical Manager
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Compost maillist - Compost at composter.com
>>>http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>>>
>>>This list is a service provided by the US Composting Council.
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>Ongoing Sponsors of the USCC Discussion list are:
>>>
>>>Food Industry Environmental Network (FIEN), a regulatory and policy
>>>e-mail alert service for environmental, food and agricultural
>>>industry
>>>
>>>
>professionals.
>
>
>>>Contact Jack Cooper 301/384-8287 JLC at fien.com --- www.fien.com
>>>
>>>Renewable Carbon Management, LLC with the containerized, in-vessel
>>>NaturTech Composting System www.composter.com rcm at composter.com
>>>
>>>(c) Copyright 2006 United States - All rights reserved
>>>
>>>Members posting CC copies to the list and other addresses will have
>>>
>>>
>their > posting privelages suspended. No exceptions!
>
>
>>>Opinions expressed represent only the poster and are not necessarily
>>>the opinion or policy of any organization.
>>>
>>>Non-members of USCC are encouraged to join the Council through our
>>>
>>>
>website at:
>
>
>>>http://www.compostingcouncil.org/membership.cfm For discussion list
>>>policies and information regarding subscribing, unsubscribing, digest
>>>or other options, go
>>>to:http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>>>
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>>>send a message to the List Manager, Jim McNelly, at
>>>compost-owner at composter.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Compost maillist - Compost at composter.com
>>http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>>
>>This list is a service provided by the US Composting Council.
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>Ongoing Sponsors of the USCC Discussion list are:
>>
>>Food Industry Environmental Network (FIEN), a regulatory and policy
>>
>>
>e-mail alert service for environmental, food and agricultural industry
>professionals.
>
>
>>Contact Jack Cooper 301/384-8287 JLC at fien.com --- www.fien.com
>>
>>Renewable Carbon Management, LLC with the containerized, in-vessel
>>NaturTech Composting System www.composter.com rcm at composter.com
>>
>>(c) Copyright 2006 United States - All rights reserved
>>
>>Members posting CC copies to the list and other addresses will have
>>
>>
>their posting privelages suspended. No exceptions!
>
>
>>Opinions expressed represent only the poster and are not necessarily
>>
>>
>the opinion or policy of any organization.
>
>
>>Non-members of USCC are encouraged to join the Council through our
>>
>>
>website at: http://www.compostingcouncil.org/membership.cfm For
>discussion list policies and information regarding subscribing,
>unsubscribing, digest or other options, go
>to:http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>
>
>>For additional help in unsubscribing or to report bugs and problems,
>>send a message to the List Manager, Jim McNelly, at
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>>
>
>--
>Frank Shields
>Soil Control Lab
>42 Hangar way
>Watsonville, CA 95076
>(831) 724-5422 tel
>(831) 724-3188 fax
>frank at compostlab.com
>www.compostlab.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Compost maillist - Compost at composter.com
>http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>
>This list is a service provided by the US Composting Council.
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>Ongoing Sponsors of the USCC Discussion list are:
>
>Food Industry Environmental Network (FIEN), a regulatory and policy
>e-mail alert service for environmental, food and agricultural industry
>professionals.
>Contact Jack Cooper 301/384-8287 JLC at fien.com --- www.fien.com
>
>Renewable Carbon Management, LLC with the containerized, in-vessel
>NaturTech Composting System www.composter.com rcm at composter.com
>
>(c) Copyright 2006 United States - All rights reserved
>
>Members posting CC copies to the list and other addresses will have
>their posting privelages suspended. No exceptions!
>
>Opinions expressed represent only the poster and are not necessarily
>the opinion or policy of any organization.
>
>Non-members of USCC are encouraged to join the Council through our
>website at: http://www.compostingcouncil.org/membership.cfm For
>discussion list policies and information regarding subscribing,
>unsubscribing, digest or other options, go
>to:http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>
>For additional help in unsubscribing or to report bugs and problems,
>send a message to the List Manager, Jim McNelly, at
>compost-owner at composter.com
>
>
>
>
>
--
Frank Shields
Soil Control Lab
42 Hangar way
Watsonville, CA 95076
(831) 724-5422 tel
(831) 724-3188 fax
frank at compostlab.com
www.compostlab.com
_______________________________________________
Compost maillist - Compost at composter.com
http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
This list is a service provided by the US Composting Council.
_______________________________________________
Ongoing Sponsors of the USCC Discussion list are:
Food Industry Environmental Network (FIEN), a regulatory and policy
e-mail alert service for environmental, food and agricultural industry
professionals.
Contact Jack Cooper 301/384-8287 JLC at fien.com --- www.fien.com
Renewable Carbon Management, LLC with the containerized, in-vessel
NaturTech Composting System www.composter.com rcm at composter.com
(c) Copyright 2006 United States - All rights reserved
Members posting CC copies to the list and other addresses will have
their posting privelages suspended. No exceptions!
Opinions expressed represent only the poster and are not necessarily the
opinion or policy of any organization.
Non-members of USCC are encouraged to join the Council through our
website at: http://www.compostingcouncil.org/membership.cfm For
discussion list policies and information regarding subscribing,
unsubscribing, digest or other options, go
to:http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
For additional help in unsubscribing or to report bugs and problems,
send a message to the List Manager, Jim McNelly, at
compost-owner at composter.com
_______________________________________________
Compost maillist - Compost at composter.com
http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
This list is a service provided by the US Composting Council.
_______________________________________________
Ongoing Sponsors of the USCC Discussion list are:
Food Industry Environmental Network (FIEN), a regulatory and policy e-mail
alert service for environmental, food and agricultural industry
professionals.
Contact Jack Cooper 301/384-8287 JLC at fien.com --- www.fien.com
Renewable Carbon Management, LLC with the containerized, in-vessel NaturTech
Composting System www.composter.com rcm at composter.com
(c) Copyright 2006 United States - All rights reserved
Members posting CC copies to the list and other addresses will have their
posting privelages suspended. No exceptions!
Opinions expressed represent only the poster and are not necessarily the
opinion or policy of any organization.
Non-members of USCC are encouraged to join the Council through our website
at: http://www.compostingcouncil.org/membership.cfm For discussion list
policies and information regarding subscribing, unsubscribing, digest or
other options, go to:http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
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