[USCC] Compost Digest, Vol 30, Issue 9, Item #3--Response to Frank

Fri Aug 11 12:56:06 CDT 2006

This debate seems to have moved even farther to the point where parties are talking about two different things. 

My education in the sciences and microbiology has taught me that it is foolish to say that some thing cannot happen. At some point some researcher will document that what we now think cannot happen actually does happen in nature in some unique microbial system. For example, there are microbes that live and thrive in deep-sea thermal vents under high pressures and temperature that we would never have believed were possible years ago. But just because there are these rather unique microbes, do we abandon the standard accepted practice of using high temperatures and pressures to “sterilize” medical instruments?

Thus the simple challenge put forth by Al Rubin (Where are all the dead bodies?) gets to the basic question of risk. If our current practices are so inadequate to protect human and environmental health why are we not seeing even a smattering of cases of injury or disease? The public consequences of improper food handling are well know and well documented. The public health consequences of improper treatment of wastewater are also well known and well documented. If the procedures suggested by EPA for the handling and treatment of biosolids are so inadequate, we should be seeing consequences. 

I do not believe that there is a conspiracy within EPA or the USDA or Public Health Services to ignore cases of injury and disease that could be traced to improper handling of biosolids. I do not hear Al Rubin and other in EPA saying that regulations and testing do not need to reviewed or updated. I do not hear proponents of composting or land application saying that we should not do research risk and look for areas to reduce risk. 

Skepticism regarding regulations and their scientific basis is always valid. But we need to be equally skeptical of the claims generated by the critics. Just because some event can happen it does not mean it is happening. It is possible that there are microbes that are behaving in a manner that we had not anticipated but does this possibility require us to abandon programs that have been cost effective and not generated any identified public health problems?

Geoff Kuter, Ph.D.
Agresource

>From: The Rubins <rubinhial at cox.net>
>Date: 2006/08/11 Fri AM 06:21:53 CDT
>To: US Composting Council Compost Discussion List <compost at composter.com>
>Subject: Re: [USCC] Compost Digest, Vol 30, Issue 9,	Item #3--Response to Frank

>U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW
>Wyndham Orlando Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007
>The National forum for those involved in the development and expansion of the composting and organics recycling industry
>CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION FORMS, WORKSHOP AGENDAS,
>EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES ARE AVAILABLE AT THE USCC WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL THE USCC AT 631-737-4931 
>
>
>Edo:
>
>As before, you have not offered any evidence that support your assertions. 
>We are all waiting for any documented case of disease to be reported from 
>the use of biosolids or biosolids composts.  Until you or anyone else can 
>report such a case, your assertions and hypotheses cannot be taken 
>seriously.
>
>Cheers
>
>Alan
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Edo McGowan" <edomcgowan at earthlink.net>
>To: <compost at composter.com>
>Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 8:18 PM
>Subject: [USCC] Compost Digest, Vol 30, Issue 9, Item #3--Response to Frank
>
>
>U.S. COMPOSTING COUNCIL 15th ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND TRADESHOW
>Wyndham Orlando Resort | Orlando, FL | January 21-24, 2007
>The National forum for those involved in the development and expansion of 
>the composting and organics recycling industry
>CONFERENCE PROGRAM, REGISTRATION FORMS, WORKSHOP AGENDAS,
>EXHIBITOR INFORMATION AND SPONSORSHIP OPPORTUNITIES ARE AVAILABLE AT THE 
>USCC WEBSITE: www.compostingcouncil.org OR CALL THE USCC AT 631-737-4931
>
>
>Frank, I think we are talking of the same things here. Perhaps it is is just 
>my perspective and choice of terms. You state-------NO! I MEAN TOXINS - 
>THINGS THAT SHOW TOXICITY. MICROBES, METALS AND ANY ORGANIC COMPOUND THAT 
>HAS SHOWN TOXICITY AND IS IN CONCENTRATIONS TO BE CONSIDERED AT A RISK.
>
>It thus seems that we then need to define terms so we are not in some sort 
>of senseless semantic argument. I will look at two terms--- TOXIN and 
>POISON.
>
> TOXIN_____as defined in a scientific context, is a biologically produced 
>substance that, in a dose related context, can causes injury to the health. 
>It is a poisonous substance, especially a protein, that is produced by 
>living cells or organisms and is capable of causing disease when introduced 
>into the body tissues but is often also capable of inducing neutralizing 
>antibodies or antitoxins.
>
>POISON--------as defined in a scientific context is a dose-related substance 
>that can cause injury, illness, or death, especially by chemical means. The 
>basis of this is discussed in the writings of Theophrastus Bombastus von 
>Hohenheim who we know as Paracelsus.
>
>Given the above, then pathogens would seem to fit into the context of TOXIN 
>AND POISON, and heavy metals into POISONS.
>
>When however one looks at transfer of genetic information, the result can be 
>initially independent of what normally would be considered as a dose 
>response aliquot. Thus small initial numbers can, upon ingestion, soon 
>become very large numbers (10 to the 9th+) by transfer into the ever 
>expanding commensal population of the gut flora. Here Iâ?Tm discussing 
>pathology caused by the transfer of antibiotic resistance or virulence 
>islands. Thus this fits well into both the definitions of TOXIN and RISK.
>
>Sjolund et al. (2005) indicated that resistance in the normal flora, which 
>may last up to four-years, might contribute to increased resistance in 
>higher-grade pathogens through interspecies transfer. These authors go on to 
>note that since populations of the normal biota are large, this affords the 
>chance for multiple and different resistant variants to develop. This thus 
>enhances the risk for spread to populations of pathogens. Furthermore, there 
>is crossed resistance. For example, vancomycin resistance may be maintained 
>by using macrolides [Giacometti A, et al In vitro activity and killing 
>effect of uperin 3.6 against gram- positive cocci isolated from 
>immunocompromised patients. Antimicrob Agents Chemother. 2005 
>Sep;49(9):3933-6. Robertson GT, et al. Vancomycin tolerance induced by 
>erythromycin but not by loss of vncRS, vex3, or pep27 function in 
>Streptococcus pneumoniae. J Bacteriol. 2002 Dec;184(24):6987-7000].
>
>The new WERF paper that discusses finding viable but non culturable  (VBNC) 
>pathogens but only after centrifuging, and then at magnitudes above what 
>standard plate counts show, then raises some very serious issues for 
>composting. I wrote about this a few years ago but it fell on deaf ears. 
>Thus, what the compost industry has been characteristically getting from 
>many POTWs and what has been going on the fields via land spreading is 
>probably just a big unknown. Consequently, the belief that the sewage sludge 
>met standards is probably just a fiction, but then, no one was willing to 
>consider VBNC as an issue---principally because sewer plant operators and 
>regulators are not trained in these areas, yet are responsible for 
>protecting public health. Thus because these people donâ?Tt appreciate these 
>issues therefore they never consider them. But that doesnâ?Tt mean they 
>donâ?Tt exist. How then does your industry that depends on a chain of 
>regulatory compliance know of this---are you, as an industry, actually 
>getting stuff that is meeting standards?
>
> Francois Vandenesch, et al (2003) in discussing Panton-Valentine 
>leukocidin, and community-acquired methicillin resistant Staph aureus, notes 
>that the genetic transfer is important. Trello Beffa, et al (1996) notes 
>that gram negative rods in high numbers are surviving at themeratures up to 
>82 C in open air windrows of commercial composting. Other authors, (I do not 
>have the citations right in front of me because I am not at my base), have 
>indicated survival at high temperatures or regrowth of pathogens following 
>cooling. Adrian Unc and others have discussed regrowth. Thus, it is quite 
>possible to see the horizontal transfer of genetic material conferring both 
>virulence and resistance.
>
>Accordingly, the current U.S. EPA Class B biosolids with its allowed fecal 
>coliform counts of 2 X10/6 per gram may actually constitute a large aliquot 
>when containing MDRB and applied to areas with soil and water movement and 
>animal or vector access. When considering the new WERF study, this limit of 
>2X 10/6 becomes more worrisome because it is probably a fiction.
>
>Hassen, et al found that, gram-positive bacteria, especially micrococcus, 
>spores of bacilli, and fungal propagules survived, and reached high 
>concentrations in compost. Not only that, "the appearance of gram-negative 
>rods (opportunistic pathogens) during the cooling phase may represent a 
>serious risk for the sanitary quality of the finished product intended for 
>agronomic reuse." (Bioresour Technol 2001 Dec;80(3):217-25).
>
>Thus, I think you and I are actually discussing very similar issues. I want 
>to see composting thrive, where else can you take liabilities of waste 
>products and turn them into assets; but that conversion must be based on 
>modern scientific rationale and not spin or ignorance.
>
>To conclude, the following thought is a statement by the WHO chief of 
>Communicable Disease, David Heymann, before the US Senate hearing on The 
>Spread of Communicable Disease, in 2001.
>
>SOME MICROBES HAVE ACCUMULATED RESISTANT GENES TO VIRTUALLY ALL CURRENTLY 
>AVAILABLE DRUGS. THUS, THESE HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO CAUSE UNTREATABLE 
>INFECTIONS. ACCORDINGLY, SUCH DISEASES MAY HAVE NO EFFECTIVE CURES OVER THE 
>NEXT 10 YEARS UNLESS THERE IS SOME UNCHARACTERISTIC BREAKTHROUGH IN DRUG 
>THERAPY. THEREFORE, IF CURRENT TRENDS CONTINUE, MANY IMPORTANT MEDICAL AND 
>SURGICAL PROCEDURES, INCLUDING CANCER THERAPY, BONE MARROW AND ORGAN 
>TRANSPLANT, HIP AND KNEE REPLACEMENT, AND CORONARY BYPASS SURGERY COULD NO 
>LONGER BE UNDERTAKEN WITHOUT UNDUE RISK OF UNSTOPPABLE INFECTION.
>
>Cheers-----------------Edo
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Compost maillist  -  Compost at composter.com
>
>
>Ongoing Sponsors of the USCC Discussion list are:
>
>Food Industry Environmental Network (FIEN), a regulatory and policy e-mail 
>alert service for environmental, food and agricultural industry 
>professionals.
>Contact Jack Cooper 301/384-8287 JLC at fien.com --- www.fien.com
>
>Renewable Carbon Management, LLC with the containerized, in-vessel NaturTech 
>Composting System www.composter.com rcm at composter.com
>
>(c) Copyright 2006 United States  - All rights reserved
>Opinions expressed are represent only the poster and are not necessarily the 
>opinion or policy of any organization.
>
>Non-members of USCC are encouraged to join the Council through our website 
>at: http://www.compostingcouncil.org/membership.cfm     For discussion list 
>policies and information regarding subscribing, unsubscribing, digest or 
>other options, go to:http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>
>For additional help in unsubscribing or to report bugs and problems, send a 
>message to the List Manager, Jim McNelly, at compost-owner at composter.com
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Compost maillist  -  Compost at composter.com
>http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>
>This list is a service provided by the US Composting Council.
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>Ongoing Sponsors of the USCC Discussion list are:
>
>Food Industry Environmental Network (FIEN), a regulatory and policy e-mail alert service for environmental, food and agricultural industry professionals.
>Contact Jack Cooper 301/384-8287 JLC at fien.com --- www.fien.com
>
>Renewable Carbon Management, LLC with the containerized, in-vessel NaturTech Composting System www.composter.com rcm at composter.com
>
>(c) Copyright 2006 United States  - All rights reserved
>
>Members posting CC copies to the list and other addresses will have their posting privelages suspended.  No exceptions!
>
>Opinions expressed are represent only the poster and are not necessarily the opinion or policy of any organization.
>
>Non-members of USCC are encouraged to join the Council through our website at: http://www.compostingcouncil.org/membership.cfm     For discussion list policies and information regarding subscribing, unsubscribing, digest or other options, go to:http://mailman.cloudnet.com/mailman/listinfo/compost
>
>For additional help in unsubscribing or to report bugs and problems, send a message to the List Manager, Jim McNelly, at compost-owner at composter.com 